Messages         You must be logged in to submit a message. Please register or login   Total: 10107 Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 Understood That's fine with me. My thing is, this is just a debate and when one of us sees that the other looks at things differently, they get defensive. I'm not afraid to say lightskin is wrong when he or she is, its only a viewpoint and that's my problem with VG he gets too defensive for no reason. I don't mind his views I'm willing to debate it because I strongly believe it's not working...and that's what happens with lightskin too, at points like these she'd get on the defensive and disrespectful end. Just be mindful of the fact that they are from our own eyes. Neither of us can agree or disagree fully if he cannot examine the view or the reasoning of another. By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   Tally What is obvious is that we all may hold differing point of views, and that is ok with me. It is when one moves into the the relm of dishonesty that I find disturbing. You hold the view opposite to that of VG, and I am sure you two can debate that and it will serve inform all of us, yet you both do it with honesty. I am prepared to read and at time add my position on things that you will write and I hope you do the same with each of us in terms of ideas. On the other hand, I learnt a long time ago that one does not get into a fight with a pig,because on one hand you can get dirty in the process and as we know the pig likes that. So it is with your new ally. By llanus Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   See lightskin, it's coming out again... Watch your words because that two is a weapon for debate... and I have to say you're making things bad on yourself. Stop the whole race thing and politics thing. Take that out of the picture and what else do you see? By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   llanus, you're right I don't know much of Burnham or cheddi's era because I was there only for a little bit of Cheddi. I've heard good and bad about them both. The thing is though, lightskin can be tolerated by me to a point because of the fact that they highlighting the other side of the story, so it's easy then to combine to two along with what I've heard and read as a youngster. I don't believe they are siding with anyone in particular, but she takes a somewhat oppsing stand to that of VG's blind eye to judge your own... By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   Llanus you are a donkey's behind Llanus I guess you were a first hand eyewittness and thus in authority to say where Corbin was, who he was with, what he wore that morning, what he had for lunch that evening , and what song sang as he took his shower that night. This is why East Indians in Guyana are bitter. You guys want to zero in on all the unscrupolous practices of the PPP and in the same breath exonorate the PNC for all its past wrong doings. Or in your case, you want to deny them all together. Please, do yo honestly think that Corbin and the PNC would admit to leading, inciting and following through with such an atrocity. Are you that naive. I don't need to lie about anything Llanus and I don't believe that the hundreds of elderly East Indians in Mon Repos, who fled Wismar on steamers down the Demerara and had seen first hand what the PNC did are lying either. As I said people believe what they want to believe. Its like my Republican colleague at work refusing to believe that American soldiers are not committing atrocities on Iraqi civilians because her party leaders tell her they are not. But a bunch of bull. By lightskin Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   Llanus Llanus I guess you were a first hand eyewittness and thus in authority to say where Corbin was, who he was with, what he wore that morning, what he had for lunch that evening , and what song sang as he took his shower that night. This is why East Indians in Guyana are bitter. You guys want to zero in on all the unscrupolous practices of the PPP and in the same breath exonorate the PNC for all its past wrong doings. Or in your case, you want to deny them all together. Please, do yo honestly think that Corbin and the PNC would admit to leading, inciting and following through with such an atrocity. Are you that naive. I don't need to lie about anything Llanus and I don't believe that the hundreds of elderly East Indians in Mon Repos, who fled Wismar on steamers down the Demerara and had seen first hand what the PNC did are lying either. As I said people believe what they want to believe. Its like my Republican colleague at work refusing to believe that American soldiers are not committing atrocities on Iraqi civilians because her party leaders tell her they are not. But a bunch of bull. By lightskin Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   Lightskin, there you go again. It is obvious that you have no capacity to help yourself from revealing your reprobate character. Please do not come on this forum and spin your lies and deceit about the events of the 60s in Mackenzie. I hold no brief for Robert Corbin and the PNC, however I will tell you that which you wrote about is a lie. Robert Corbin was not around to do what you and your grandfather claimed he did. The PNC was involved in no such census, stop it. There was indeed violence in Christianburg and Silvertown against Indians. That unfortunate episode is a black eye on our history. However, missing if your grandfather's refusal to talk about the blacks who risked life and limb to save others from the madness. Missing from your putrid narrative is the deaths of the Sealey family on the East Coast, which led some to encourage blacks to attack Indians in Wismar. Missing is the lost of 45 lives who were killed in the Sun Chapman. Do you want to talk to those family members? Do you want to talk the only surviving member of the Abrahams family, who lost her entire family when the PPP bombed their home in Georgetown. Please do not come on this forum and spew your bile, we are all aware of the recorded history of our country, and not the jaundiced recollections of a purtid mind. I watch the last few days the debate on this forum and wanted to stay away from it because I knew 'Ole School' VG can school the likes of you anyday. However, it is hard to stand aside and watch your rewrite our history and maybe even fool the likes of Tally. By llanus Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   The importance of change is right in front of you and it's not a cliche' I must be blind indeed if we were to look at everything from an english point of view. But have you seen Barrack Obama lately? What protest is he apart of? Isn't he working for change? and did he not have to educate himself before he even went thus far or he had an undercover protest? Or maybe that just a miracle that some old cliche' worked in his favour? You seriously have to do better than that... By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   to lightskin So I see where you get your ideas from. I wonder what VG has to say about that, I hope he's considerate. But anyway, the fact that you don't agee with the PNC and neither the PPP is not registering to him. I don't know what to say about that because now we're forming an alliance if we disagree but they're not forming one by highlighting only the wrong doings of the party they oppose...anything for our english professor to get smarter By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   I need you VG...work with me You're really helping my debating skills here but anyway let's put it out there: in other words let's break it down. I'm not zeroing in on PNC or PPP. I'm zeroing on here again is another protest. Not the fact that it's for an Indian man or it's for a black man or whatever. IT'S ANOTHER PROTEST led by whom? OUR PEOPLE it's not what they're protesting for it's the fact that they are doing it again... THE QUESTION IS WERE THEY RIGHT TO PROTEST? I keep saying no.(where is it so hard to comprehend?) You don't need english language alone to compare a Protest to hard work. I said it already myself that's the first thing we do. How am I going to say that's the first thing every black person does when even I don't do it but the fact that the majority does it, in ENGLISH AS YOU KNOW SO WELL, this is a good way to generalise. So in other words does this type of generalising means every black individual? no it means the majority (I hope you're here with me so far) Hard work In this case because I learned in english that you one thing can be said and it means a million different things so it has to do with the way in which we read or hear it ok? So back to the term hard work - in this case hard work would mean to go against all that is being put towards us and still find a way. Protest is not going to find a way so in MY definition protest is not hard work? In one of your intelligent comments you referenced Martin Luther King Jr's letter to Birmingham jail. Recently, I had a class that compared his letter to that of a philosopher by the name of Socrates who was mentioned in his letter. Permit me to critique it for a second, not to bash but to highlight something from a more critical point of view. Martin Luther King like Socrates felt that the only thing to use as a weapon for changing the views of others was persuasion with knowledge. However, Martin Luther King felt that you can't and should not persuade all the time, when people are not willing to see so the next best thing is create a tension...by what method? Non-violent protests... And so Dr King encouraged these protests to put the issue of inequality in the forefront and the the protests went on and we all got civil rights. Thanks to Dr King... We got to drink from the same fountains and used to same parks and sit on the busses amongst other people Amen...oh and we were now given and opportunity to educate ourselves... And here is where I get my views from Mr VG we cannot be truly equal if we are not educated enough to fill higher positions in offices or where ever and to be able to advocate positive changes for not only our people but for the benefit of others as well. The fountains, parks, and every other thing is face value - knowledge/education is not, the school may be but education again, is not. If we cannot educate ourselves then how can we expect to be in a position to lead generally? Be it Robert Corbin, you, myself or even lightskin? We don't have to protest education anymore because it's there for our taking, and what makes it different is the fact that it's not face value. In the case of that protest, if we spent more time garnering knowledge (what I consider the harder of the two >>"hard work") Sooner or later we'll be in a better position to take charge of ourselves that way, we wouldn't have to expect the Government, if headed by an indian or black to do wrong by us because we're doing right by ourselves by putting our selves in better positions. So no sir, I'm not out to burn the PNC and black people, I'm out to burn the idea that we have to protest everything.... Years after Dr King's protest like I said before, education is now here for the taking, and it's harder than a protest and that's what most of our people do: take the easier one and that needs to stop... like I said before it's not like I'm criticisizing without a better alternative I'm throwing the alternative out there. You who seem to think I'm running down on my own people, when I'm only trying to build us up by identifying a problem that we should work on, keeps taking things the wrong way. So this is not just an english lesson on how to write an argument. It's a lesson on how to be different, a lesson on how to understand our history and use it as a WEAPON FOR CHANGE IN A MORE PRODUCTIVE MANNER. By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   tally VG keeps harping about my anti-black views, and bear in mind I am quater percent black, but fails to recognize his own raciest views by legitimizing black superiority and dominance. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. VG is highly opinionated. He believes that whatever he espouses is gospel and should be adhered to without question. Tally there is a reason why I get so emotional when VG and others try to legitimize the PNC Dictatorship. During the early sixties, my grandfather who is East Indian had witnessed Corbin and other PNC members conducting a census in Wismar. They were not just simply trying to determine the racial demographics of Wismar, but identify which homes belonged East Indians and which belonged to Africans. A week later, Burhnam gave a speech in Wismar espousing anti Indian rhetoric while holding a manicole broom and asserting that his supporters should sweep the East Indians out of the country. Needless to say it wasnt long before gangs of PNC supporters began going up to East Indians including my grandfather and his relatives and his mixed race children and began sweeping their feet. However, this would only be the beginning. A couple of weeks later, all hell would broke loose. As men were going to work and children going to school, screams started emanating from East Indian homes as gangs of PNC supporters began to rape, steal and burn. When my grandfather realized what was happening, he began to run home to his Black/Amerindian wife to make sure she was safe. By the time he got to her it was much to late, he was beaten up and forced to witness a group of black men take turns raping his wife and eventually stucking a bottle up her Vagina. Because my mother, aunts and uncles look East Indian, they were also targeted and my uncle was caught and set on fire. He lives today to tell you what the PNC is all about. So please, when idiots like VG and Superero assert that black people did what they had to do to serve their interests, I cringe. I would love for them to go to my grandmothers grave or look in my uncle's burned face and tell them what the Burnham did was legitimate. Just like I would love the PPP government to look the mothers of those innocent black men killed by the secret police, and tell them that their actions are legitimate wrong is wrong By lightskin Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   AGAIN, DO SOME REMEDIAL WORK TALLY I think we're on to something...is it that you are scared of change? Here is another line by line for you: It makes no sense you force people to give u this and give you that and then if you don't have the education to manage it you're back to square one: you can't help yourself and then you blame. And so I say again, protests get you nowhere because you spend so much time protesting you forget to educate yourselves on what to do when you get what you seek. Work for it and protesting is not a good job! What's the purpose of Robert Corbin leading a protest to Cancel or boycott Carifesta in Guyana? Why couldn't he say oh let's work to be apart rather than to break apart what is being built? VG: These are your words. represent them by first citing one historical social change that occurred without protest and activism. You advanced this thesis. Represent it before you begin to ask questions. So because it was never done in history, does that mean it's impossible or it means we'd have to work a little harder to reap the benefits? Who do you think you're fooling? You're scared of change so you keep going with the same old methods in changing times. You would be like let's not try to build a computer because the type-writer is just fine (mediocrity) don't pull me in that. I said to you already in a time when protests seem not to work and our youths are suffering at the "hands of the wicked" what do you have to fear. This is a time to come up with something new and a protest is not new... By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 VG: If this output is the product of education then the youths who are engaged in protest are not loosing anything. It is waste of time to engage you in any kind of debate. You advance a thesis and defend it with the assertion that because it was never done before your point still stand. just who told you that you are capable of engaging in a debate. Have you ever tried jumping off the roof of a hundred floor building with an umbrella to see if it would work like a parachute and lower you gently to the ground. Yes, it has not been tried before, but based on your reasoning that does not say it won't work. This is infantile, and clearly shows the underdevelopment of your thought processes. Scared of change? Another cliche you picked up somewhere and conclude that its usage evidences wisdom. It does not. All it evidences is that you pluck phrases you came across somewhere and disjointedly lay them out here. You keep harping about education while producing "D" grade output. And here is an example. You assert quote "What's the purpose of Robert Corbin leading a protest to Cancel or boycott Carifesta in Guyana? Why couldn't he say oh let's work to be apart rather than to break apart what is being built"? Have you been following that event? Is your attention span so limited that it cannot take in the fact that this protest came about after all other means had been exhausted. That the Government refuses to consider the contributions of stake holders it meets with and promise to include in certain decision making processes. I am sorry, you need to carry on this conversation with lightskin. You have absolutely no background knowledge of even the bare essentials necessary to formulate a coherent position. My God, it is no wonder the world is in a rot. By victoriaguy Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   TALLY YOU NEED TO DO SOME REMEDIAL READING There is a sparseness to you guys ability to follow the course of a debate that is unnerving. I mean what kind of a hypocite are you. You generalised the Carifesta protest into an a racist demonstration. What facility of reaoning allows you to so casually flip standards at will. You desribed the Carifesta protest as creating chaos and anger. In 0ther words, you label the mothers out there defending the rights of Sharma to be merely like hooligans stirring up and creating upheaval. People have to take responsibility for their descriptions. What more do I want? Lightskin challenged me to show her a post where she denigrated blackmen. I did. You, as usual, in your inimitable blind style, responded with the question of what more do I want. Didn't you read and understand her challenge. It is this vacuity that have us at logger heads. This propensity to leap over the last to some point in your imagination. I do not need you to jettison your support for lightskin. I do not seek allies in these battles. I wage them unflinchingly and assertively because I know that posterity will examine each post with the capacity to parse and understand context. Are you dumb or what? you said that quote, "we spend so much time pointing fingers trying to make others give us a way forward before we just go work for it like everyone else". If you lack the ability to write what you mean then stop writing. People cannot get into your head to discern what you mean beyond the meaning in the words and sentences. f we are TRYING TO MAKE OTHERS PROVIDE A WAY FORWARD FOR US, then we are being dependant. tHAT IS A SIMPLE ENGLISH CONSTRUCTION. If we are doing this rather than WORKING FOR WHAT WE WANT LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, then we are a lazy people who refuse to do what others do. Like I said, you need to engage your brain before you put your keyboard in gear. How did this conflation of protest with hardwork come about. Let's have an english lesson here to see whether reading is one of your weak spots. I am very precise with the language I use and do not have to go back and perform acrobatics to explain it. w equation By victoriaguy Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   I think we're on to something...is it that you are scared of change? Here is another line by line for you: It makes no sense you force people to give u this and give you that and then if you don't have the education to manage it you're back to square one: you can't help yourself and then you blame. And so I say again, protests get you nowhere because you spend so much time protesting you forget to educate yourselves on what to do when you get what you seek. Work for it and protesting is not a good job! What's the purpose of Robert Corbin leading a protest to Cancel or boycott Carifesta in Guyana? Why couldn't he say oh let's work to be apart rather than to break apart what is being built? VG: These are your words. represent them by first citing one historical social change that occurred without protest and activism. You advanced this thesis. Represent it before you begin to ask questions. So because it was never done in history, does that mean it's impossible or it means we'd have to work a little harder to reap the benefits? Who do you think you're fooling? You're scared of change so you keep going with the same old methods in changing times. You would be like let's not try to build a computer because the type-writer is just fine (mediocrity) don't pull me in that. I said to you already in a time when protests seem not to work and our youths are suffering at the "hands of the wicked" what do you have to fear. This is a time to come up with something new and a protest is not new... By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   stop generalising too that's another issue I said we "But consider this: we all say we seek to be equal and have the government NOT treat us the way they do...like I said we spend so much time pointing fingers trying to make others give us a way forward before we just go work for it like every one else. Regardless of what, I'm sticking by my point. It's harder but the benefits you reap are much more" you're saying VG: These are your words. Aproposition that black people, unlike every other group does not wish to work for what they need but spend time being dependent on others. These are english words and have english meaning. Maybe you need to do some remedial work before you begin to put things down on paper." No sir that's not what I'm saying. You see a protest is not MY definition of working hard, it's probably yours. How can I say that "Black people unlike every other group does not wish to work hard but spend time dependent on others" if I am a black youth who is in school "working with what I've been given to get a position somewhere" my very own thesis...I'm so caught up in that idea that I don't have time to say let's protest because that is not HARD WORK...therefore it's not going to pay. Why would you even want to say we work the hardest if we're not reaping the benefits? old people seh' (not me, old people) if you think you're giving it your best and you're not seeing results then you are fooling yourself; and that VG is exactly what you are doing because we are not seeing results... By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   What do you need VG, you seem to see the squint in my eyes... If I clearly recalled light skin apologised for her whole bashing in the the earlies, does that give you a right to hold it against her everytime she enters an opinion contrary to hers. And similarly are you justifying the actions of the PNC based on the actions of the PPP when the PNC were in power? Then you need to check yourself because no one ever said the PPP was right, we're saying YOU CAN'T JUSTIFY THE PNC IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO JUSTIFY THE PPP. or maybe you can (if you're BLACK and the PPP is in power).>>>> out right bullcrap. No one is saying to side with the PPP, they're saying PLAY THE GAME FAIRLY, they both mess up and that's the bottomline because as leaders of a country, they looked out for their own. So why hold lightskin accountable if she's off that issue of that whole women crap and why whole the PPP accountable if their actions are similar to that of the PNC. You see, here is where it is evident that you're not only one-sided, but you're so caught up in this bring at me, bring at you crap, you can't grow our of it. Like you can't go out of the box and say ok lightskin you went wrong once and you were corrected, so you have a chance to redeem yourself (or maybe she should have by justifying the PNC and as usual not justify the PPP) As such you can't say ok the PNC err to protect our people and so the PPP is doing the same crap only thing we're now feeling the squeeze. SO WE SEE THIS IS NOT WORKING I WONDER WHAT CAN WE DO NEXT? Is that idea ever a part of your mind? or the only thing you see is race and politics? is that it? By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   lol why are you getting beefed up with your language? It's just a debate, remain calm I say again you always doing that pat our people on the back crap. Do you have any critiques for our generation of Black youths? Like seriously do you? I'm a black youth and I'm telling you not asking you have to check yourself first to ensure all is right by you. I've checked and that is what I see I'm not washing my mouths on them, I'm HIGHLIGHTING A ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT! and here's another issue for you: HOW SUCCESSFUL WAS THE PROTEST CAN YOU TELL ME? why are you not answering that? By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   SINCE YOU CHALLENGED MY ASSERTIONS I WILL PROVIDE MY JUSTIFICATIONS. This is lightskin's intellectual dissection of the black race in Guyana. I have her racist rant in its entirety on my desk top. It will come back to haunt her one day, belie dat. Blacks, thus have been psychologically screwed up and thus have for many years taken out their aggression on indians. This behavior pattern is quite natural. We all know that if you are called ugly and no good your whole life, nine times out of ten you will believe it. Not only will you believe it, but you will become extremly bitter and resentful. Well can you imagine a whole race of people being called ugly and no good for four hundred years. It has to affect the collective pshyci and this is the reason you find blacks to be more aggressive than any other group in Guyana be they East Indian, Chinese, Portuguese or Amerindian. Cheak it out, at most schools in Guyana which kids are the most warish and boorish. its almost always an ugly dark skinned black girl with kinky hair. Not even beautiful black woman are as aggressive. Shoots their beauty makes them an abberation given that most people perceive blacks in general to be ugly so when you find a beautiful ebony girl, she is seen as exotic and is thus highly prized. But if she ugly and black and worse yet poor, expect her to be a warior woman, loud and aggressive and ready for war. thus when she sees an indian woman or a mixed woman, she is green with envy. to be continued By lightskin Thursday, March 13, 2008 And this apology makes her a liar. I have the entirety of your vituprative attack on the black race on my desk top, and will retain it for posterity. I would protest volubly if i ever discovered you teaching or in any instructional capacity with younbg black minds. I wonder what the black Student Union of that college you attend will think of your dessertations on the black race. People who say the wrong things then lie and accuse those who point out their wrongs as racist should never be trusted. The Klu Klux Klan accuse African Americans who challenge the precept of their belief system of being racist. You are just following the pattern of those with whom you share a commonality of beliefs. lightskin: to victoria guy You know, I will admit that i may have said some derogatory things about the black race and black women of the darker hue in particular. But understand that my resentment comes from my personal and for the most part negative experiences, interactions, and dealings with certain groups of dark skinned black women. I am thus trying to understand the why many mixed race and non black Guyanese girls and women like myself seem to often be the brunt of African particularly dark skinned, female rage. This is a topic I want to truly explore because it is real in many parts of Guyana. I know that I am not alone in this sentiment because I have discussed it with numerous light and brown skinned black females, "douglas", East Indian and to a lesser extent Amerindian females. I have recorded interviews describing this phenomenon so I know that this id not just happenning to me. Giving that this aggression rarely comes from black males. To be quite honest, my most serious relationship in guyana was with a dark skinned black male and I just remember the looks I would get from dark skinned black women in particular when we would go to clubs, the sea wall or almost anywhere. Lets just put it this way, if looks could kill, I would be six feet under by now. I remember as a child when a very cute dark skinned boy displayed an interest in me. All of the sudden I became a focus of negative attention from many of my dark skinned female counterparts who spare calling me a coolie, and pulling my hair and harrassing me every moment they could. These particular girls made my live a living hell, throwing dirt in my face, beating me up, all the while yelling racial slurs: duty coolie, half coolie, dougla b---h. at me. Thus giving my experience and that of many mixed and non black guyanese women I had spoken to, I had come to the conclusion that their must be some jealousy involved. I may be totally incorrect but I honestly feel that way thus I presented my views on this forum to honestly see how this ideology would taken by the larger afro guyanese community. I never knew that I would end up being called a DB or that a man who claims to be a grandfather would talk so cruelly about my twenty five year old vagina in several different instances. Thats kind of sick don't you think. Instead of being like a father figure and an elder and letting me know when I am out of line in a gentler more fatherly fashion, you behave like my peer. I am still a young women regardless victoria guy, Im actually not even turning 25 until next month. I admit that I may have been out of line in some of my writings but I had never attacked anyone personally even you. You started with your personal attacks when you referred to me as a dumb b---h. Now is that how a man who has grandchildren related to a women who could be his daughter or even possibly his granddaughter. In any case I apologize for anything I may have said to hurt you or anyone else for that matter. I just wanted honest feedback about my hypothesis and to generate some insightful conversations about the topic. I blame myself for not presenting my theory in a less derogatory manner. By lightskin Monday, March 17, 2008 By victoriaguy Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   DEAL WITH YOUR IGNORANT ASSERTIONS BEFORE ASKING QUESTIONS What one sided shit are you talking about. The debate was on the protest. The debate was whether protest was a viable method of persons airing grievances. Let me post these comments line by line so that people can see the kind of double speak you guys engage in. tally It makes no sense you force people to give u this and give you that and then if you don't have the education to manage it you're back to square one: you can't help yourself and then you blame. And so I say again, protests get you nowhere because you spend so much time protesting you forget to educate yourselves on what to do when you get what you seek. Work for it and protesting is not a good job! What's the purpose of Robert Corbin leading a protest to Cancel or boycott Carifesta in Guyana? Why couldn't he say oh let's work to be apart rather than to break apart what is being built? VG: These are your words. represent them by first citing one historical social change that occurred without protest and activism. You advanced this thesis. Represent it before you begin to ask questions. lightskin asked me whether I left Guyana before Burnham era. She is fishing for a starting point to make an argument. It is childish and stupid. What is the sense of answering questions from people who say one thing and then peform acrobatics in order to hide from them. tally But consider this: we all say we seek to be equal and have the government NOT treat us the way they do...like I said we spend so much time pointing fingers trying to make others give us a way forward before we just go work for it like every one else. Regardless of what, I'm sticking by my point. It's harder but the benefits you reap are much more. VG: These are your words. Aproposition that black people, unlike every other group does not wish to work for what they need but spend time being dependent on others. These are english words and have english meaning. Maybe you need to do some remedial work before you begin to put things down on paper. There is no other group in this world that work harder for what they need than Africans. This insulting and lopsided reasoning you put out here does not qualify you to advance question for others. Not when you do not ven have the honesty to admit to what you wrote, but take circumlocutious route to avoid dealing with it. By victoriaguy Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   And now to lightskin...who talked up about our women (If I were to follow my dear VG...)Listen here person, how could you talk about our women and then want to give your views saying that it is only fair to look at the argument on both sides lol. Your are an IDIOT and you are a LOONEY and you are STUPID ha! Is this folk out of his mind? seems like he wants to protest with his words... I live in NEW YORK and I'm from LINDEN... I'm going to be straight with you too: you see, people jump on you because of the fact that now you want to show that the PNC worked side by side with the PPP AS IT RELATES TO TREATING YOUR OWN FAIRLY... And people run away with the impression that this forum is to praise the PNC and bash the PPP and that is (my new word for this forum) BULLCRAP You can never see an idea to change if you can't compare both sides and VG our intelligent crusher doesn't even move off to examine both sides. So he's going to come with that nonsense over and over again... watch for it and he's good at twisting words so pay attention... By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   In addition Professor/one-sided analyst... are you caught in a cross road with questions? AS MY SUBJECT SAID YOU FAIL TO ANSWER QUESTIONS (AND FAIL TO SEE TOO) I'M NOT SIDING, rightly so (and similarly twisted like you) I AM HIGHLIGHTING... I noticed lightskin post a question just to you, you didn't reply. I offered a few in the very comments you thought you could have crushed, again you do not examine the full issue. So I'll answer for you and compare what you've said to what I said and see who's in a better position to say the other is full of crap, because I'm a little tired reading your drawn out one sided nonsense this weekend. I'll go with mine first... PROBLEM: "the government as it is, treats Afro-Guyanese unfairly" SOLUTION: Afro-Guyanese ought to put themselves in more positions to lead (since now if I use the term EDUCATE themselves to be in positions, you might just hear I'm saying all Black people dunce...which is far from the truth...anyway). PURPOSE or REASON: If they are in a postion to lead they can help to decrease the rate at which our people are suffering at the hands of the so-called "wicked". And when I say lead, I mean lead in the interest of all people, that's A TRUE LEADER. RESULT: There will be no more cries about who's party is this and who's is that. The country would then be full of people who are willing and able to find quality jobs and most of all no one is going to have to blame the government for squash because they won't have the ask for squash except to provide more jobs because they are now qualified, (because I'm sure no one took time-off from their job if they had a good job to go protesting...) Here is yours Professor and one-sided analyst Problem: "the government as it is, treats Afro-Guyanese unfairly" SOLUTION: Let's Protest Purpose or reasoN (YOU CAN PICK THE BEST ONE):(A) BECAUSE IT WAS DONE BEFORE IN OUR HISTORY (B) BECAUSE THE PPP USED TO DO IT WHEN THE PNC WERE IN POWER (C) IT'S THE FASTEST THING TO DO SINCE THE GOVERNMENT IS plain blank UNFAIR. Result (you can choose one of any two: (there's the fantasy version and the realistic version - that which occurs today...anyway here goes): (A) With a PNC led protest there is going to be tension in the government to the point where they will say, let's sit and talk about the way forward for your people since we've always put our people on a pillar. (B) The government is going to pay no mind to this, just as much as he paid no mind to previous or recent protests and what next? Oh we'll be protesting till the end of time because that's what our forefathers did. So even when times are changing, one thing remains the same "we have to PROTEST" MY CONCLUSION: *You are full of bullcrap. *You have no mind open to changes (which like I said before has nothing to do with the PPP or the PNC>>has to do with YOU AND YOUR INTELLIGENT MIND) * Until this day you cannot come up with a positive way forward so you keep stressing on the race and politics crap. *You simply are for creating tension and too blind to see how much you would be hurting our generation with your crap if we depended on you for leadership. *You have a basic problem of going against the PNC's choice and criticising your own. SO I'LL ASK AGAIN WHAT DO YOU HAVE IN MIND FOR THE FUTURE IF WE WERE TO CONSIDER PROTESTING ALL THE DAYS OF OUR LIVES? By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   People in here need to calm their nerves down... VG let's get this straight, I went against your nonsense in the first place because it was one-sided. If you seek to justify the nonsense from Burnham then others have all right to justify the non-sense of whoever they choose. That whole education issue, is not something occuring in Guyana only, I said however there are not much of our people completing compared to the amount of people on the streets, be it Guyana, the United States whatever...Why do you think you can twist my words to suit your crap?I told you already, I'm not one of those youths to come crumbling down because you try to twist me up. I mean what gives you the right to think you can tell anyone else in here oh you are dead wrong when YOU can't even look at the WHOLE situation and if you are to consider race, then say Oh the PNC did this for their people but the PPP did... you can't come here and say only one party is right for protecting the people of their race but the other is wrong... for what reason?In addition to that it makes you debate biased because you're just not examining the whole situation. I never came in here saying I'm dead PPP or I'm dead PNC because I don't care for the PPP or the PNC like I stated before. By tally Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   VG you need a dougla woman to calm your nerves................. VG please get off your high horse because you have been exposed. You are blatently and unapologetically racist and biased. Ethnocentrism in your eyes is only legitimate when practiced by Africans. By your own admission, Africans in Guyana did what they had to do to preserve their interest. Yet this practice only becomes problematic when East Indians do the same. So I beg the question again, why the double standard? Can you truely come up with an answer as to why it is okay for Africans to practice race politics but why it is not okay East Indians? I would really like to hear your response. I would also like to ask if you would support a militant movement ofAmerindians to assume power and dominate Africans and East Indians in Guyana so that their interest will be protected? With regard to black men, show me a post where I have denigrated them. I do remember venting my frustrations at certain black women, but black men, I don't think so. I love black men, always have and always will. There is nothing more sexy and beautiful than a dark chocolate man. Every boyfriend I have had has been black, except for my current boyfriend who happens to be a white Cuban and is in the process of getting dumped because of his biased Republican views. So get your facts straight. By the way, I had a wonderful time in The Dominican Republic. The food is terriffic, the beaches are beautiful, Santo Domingo is breathtaking and the people are gorgeous. Almost everyone looked dougla and I was able to fit right in. I knew I would because I am always being asked here in Florida if I am Dominican, Cuban or Puerto Rican. Very few people ever guess Guyanese. If you want you can give me your email so I could send you pics of me in my bikini on a beach so you could see what aspects of the black race Ive inherited. PS. You never told me when you left Guyana. I need to know. Tally where in the US do you live and where in Guyana did you originate. I live in Miami but I'm originally from Mon Repos. By lightskin Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   MAKING IT MORE PLAIN Charlotte Bronte opined that quote: " Prejudices, it is well known, are most difficult to eradicate from the heart whose soil has never been loosened or fertilized by education; they grow there, firm as weeds among rocks". And the heart always interpret what the eyes behold. As Freddie articulates in his commentary posted earlier, hypocrites who cursed and railed against a perceived order of things now give the Nelson eye to manifestations that are abhorrent, and attempt to silence the criticism of those who dare to puncture their inverse proportional ballon. My charge is that we do not allow the natterings of those whose values are conditioned by ethical subjectivism and cultural relativism, to convince us that their skewed reasoning and rationalizing impeaches what our eyes and intelligence define for us. That is the timeless strategy of the greatest propagandist that walked this earth. Guyana has seen an emergence of this kind of expertise whenever there seem to be a need to villify certain segments of her population. While he was in prison in a Birmingham jail, Martin Luther King received a letter from a group of clergy critical of his protest and categorizing them as quote, "unwise and untimely". So what we are seeing in here is almost a deja vu reflection of that history. But Martin refused to allow the shallowness that sought comfort over justice to dissuade him from his commitment in the struggle for the greater good of his nation. Poignantly, and perhaps reflective of the path this thread has taken, his response to his critics included quote, "You deplore the demonstrations taking place In Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city's white power structure left the Negro community with no alternative". Adapt the relevant descriptions to the debate in here and you will be better able to understand the construct. Our critics are exhibiting greater concern for the superficial benefits of Carifesta than the spear that was flung through the heart of democracy and freedom of speech with the suspension of Sharma's licence. But if you recall, this is the same position they took during the lead up to the World cup in Guyana. There should not be protest because the benefits would be great for Guyana they said. There was no protest. But the benefits came in the form of a 16% COL increase on the backs of the poor and poverty stricken. There are people in and of Guyana whose analysis remind me of Hans Christian Anderson's tale of the naked emperor. The reality of Guyana is a naked emperor parading in public with a sycophantic cheering section enthusiastically clapping and lauding his "beautiful garments". llanus my friend let us continue to be the little boy in the crowd who points out that the emperor's family jewels is covered with zilch. By victoriaguy Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   TRUTH CRUSHED TO EARTH WILL ALWAYS RISE AGAIN Roger Khan had ordered hit on Davendra Persaud April 26, 2008 STABROEKNEWS ARTICLE court documents In one of the most shocking revelations since the indictment of businessman Roger Khan on drug-smuggling charges, the US government on Thursday disclosed that he had ordered the executions of Davendra Persaud, who was gunned down in Palm Court over three years ago, as well as several of its informants and other drug dealers. The US did not name the informants, who were described as cooperating witnesses, but sources said they might have been the five men killed on Diwali night on Robb Street next door to Nigels Supermarket in 2002. The revelations were made in the Eastern District Court of New York after Khans attorneys got hold of a sealed confidential document, which contained an interview between Persaud and the US government in relation to a narcotics case against another Guyanese Delven Adams, who was a member of Khans organisation. The USs objections to the defence obtaining the document could potentially spark a heated court session slated for Monday. In a letter dated April 24, and addressed to Justice Dora Irizarry, US Attorney Benton Campbell said he was apprising the court of an issue that the government will raise at the status conference scheduled for Monday. Campbell said that as part of Khans lawyers opposition to the US governments motion for an anonymous jury, they attached several exhibits. One of these was a report from the US Customs Service, now Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), of an interview with Persaud. Campbell said this report was an official and confidential internal ICE document, used for investigative purposes, that was disclosed by the government to defence counsel at trial in a case against Delven Adams and others. Adams was busted in the US with drugs in 2004. According to Campbell, the report and some other material were disclosed to defence counsel in that trial pursuant to Rule 806 of the Federal Rules of Evidence, because it could be used to impeach Persaud, whose statements were admitted as co-conspirator statements through other witnesses. Campbell said the US government satisfying its obligations, however, did not entitle defendants to file or otherwise disseminate that material outside the litigation. He argued that in the Adams trial, the government had serious concerns about witness safety, in large part because Persauds testimony as well as testimony from 3,500 material witnesses implicated various individuals in Khans organisation. However, Campbell disclosed that Persaud, who was a co-conspirator of Khan, the Adams trial defendants, and the governments cooperating witnesses in the Adams case, was gunned down in Guyana on Khans orders as he perceived that Persaud was cooperating with the US government. In an effort to protect witnesses, Judge Frederic Block ordered the defence attorneys in that case not to disseminate the 3,500 material to anyone other than their clients. Unfortunately, Judge Blocks order was violated as defence counsel in this case has possession of this Customs report. The government did not provide this report to defence counsel in this case, and it was only disseminated in the Adams case, Campbell wrote to the judge. He said the US government was writing to inform the court of the issue, and to request the court to inquire of Khans lawyers at Mondays status conference: how, from whom, and when they obtained the report. The government also wants to know whether they have obtained any of the statements of the 3,500 material witnesses disseminated at the Adams trial; and whether they have disseminated any of this to anyone else. We further request that the court order the prompt return to the government of any such material in the defences possession including all copies they have made of such material, Campbell requested. He said while Khans lawyers might not have been aware of Judge Blocks order, this inquiry was important not only because a court order was violated, but because the potential danger to witnesses and their families in this case could not be overstated. It is imperative that the government has complete knowledge of the full scope of the information disseminated about its prior witnesses, so as to take necessary safety precautions, Campbell stated. Khans lead attorney, Robert Simels in a response yesterday told the court that the documents were obtained from the clerks office on March 31, this year. Simels said following the court appearance in this case his associate requested an opportunity to obtain a copy of the criminal complaint against an individual named Brentnoll Hooper in the file entitled US vs. Adams. Simels said the clerk provided a box containing courts transcripts and other documents. In reviewing the file my associate noticed that Persauds documents were in an envelope not sealed in the file. She made copies of same, Simels said in his letter. Khan is facing charges for conspiring to import cocaine into the US. Late last year this newspaper had reported that US was to introduce as evidence a ledger of Persaud, who was also a boutique owner, which contained the names of alleged drug dealers. Persaud was gunned down at Palm Court in October 2004 by unknown persons. One of Khans lawyers here had told this newspaper that the US might be hoping to use some of the persons on Persauds ledger to give evidence against Khan. Persaud was shot close to 15 times, in what appeared to be an organised hit, orchestrated by a gang of four. Persaud had been charged locally in relation to drugs and later became an informant for the US government. Reports were that four men, two of whom were wearing masks, turned up at the Main Street bar in a white Toyota Sprinter car registration number PJJ 1767 a little before 10 pm. Two men remained in the car, another stood guard at the gate, while one went up to Persaud and shot him. The gunman reportedly stood over him and opened fire at close range. Police had arrested a number of persons for questioning, but they were all released By victoriaguy Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   FREDDIE ON THE NOISE MAKERS WHO FIRST SET OUT TO DECEIVE I have never run away from my country April 27, 2008 Dear Editor, I saw Mrs Jagan twice on television after the death of her husband, saying that it used to pain her to see the nasty things people say of Dr Jagan. I have been married for 30 years now with an 18-year-old daughter, and I have carefully advised them over the long years that people will say nasty things about me and they must never ever let it bother them in the least because bad people, flawed people, unfair people, powerful people, selfish people, unjust people, exploitative people will resort to saying and writing nasty things about independent minds. In the middle of the eighties, when Mr Hoyte was in power, a well-known supporter of the government of the day gave a GBC Viewpoint, and informed his listeners that I was declared persona non-grata in the Caribbean and that I was barred entry into Dominica and Bahamas. It was a complete falsehood but I didnt sue. Such scandalous stories about me have gone on since then, right up to the present time. I can name Clem David, Roger Moore, Tony Vieira as persons I have seen on television casting aspersions on my character. I didnt sue them. Now there is Walter Persaud who has added his own brand of nasty attack on my character. Walter Persaud didnt say in his letter that I have stopped him from spilling his propaganda about lovely and good government in Guyana. But that is what I did. Persaud and his brother, Randy went on a letter rampage a few years back in support of the PPP Government in both independent dailes while refusing to come back to Guyana to serve the very government that they so embrace and the country that they feel the PPP has done so much to improve since the PNC lost power. But each time they wrote, many of us didnt allow them to get away with their unbridled propaganda. I exposed their false theories about the PPP under Guyana. Others like David Hinds took them to task. Walter and Randy Persaud, Rickey Singh, David Dabydeen and others like them would have been filling the heads of our young people about the good government we have in Georgetown if there werent academics in this country to take them on. I see my task as stopping these people from misleading Guyanese citizens. People like Walter Persaud know they will be exposed as mere propagandists when they write on Guyanese political sociology. He tells me that I should look in the Mirror. I did. And I saw someone who has never run away from his country during the 28 years of Burnham rule. I looked in the Mirror and I see someone that wants his country to have the modern comforts, a developed economy, a successful education system, a satisfactory medical system, and the sacred, priceless principles of democracy that Walter Persaud, his brother Randy, David Dabydeen and Rickey Singh and others like them enjoy where they live. They can stay in the comfort of their modern niche and tell us how democratic the Guyana government is and the progress that Guyana is achieving under the PPP. But they are not coming back. They will not live here anymore. They will not send their children to a university that doesnt have labs and books. They will not accept having constant blackouts for hours that make your professional life a nightmare. They would not live in a country where the drains in the capital city are clogged for decades, and where important roads have huge craters in them for years making the upkeep of a vehicle a too costly exercise. I dont need to go on about the run down state in Guyana. The world knows about our poverty. There is a mind-set in the Guyanese Diaspora. This section of the Guyanese Diaspora escaped from Guyana at a time when the PNC was a cruel government. They claimed that the Burnham government was racist and discriminatory. These very people today are over-zealous in support of a government that has nothing to show for sixteen years of power. But the embrace comes nevertheless because they see the community they belong to as the group that now has power in Guyana. They tell us that they are educated. They tell us that they write books and teach at universities. But with all their education, they refuse to see the newer forms of cruel government in Georgetown, the same cruel government they fled from only it was run by the PNC. And this is because the only thing they can see in front of them is that their kind is on top in the control of power in Georgetown today. Funny how they saw bad government when a different group ruled Guyana in the seventies and eighties. Now their type is in control, and they are silent about identical forms of bad government. Mr Benschop was put in prison for five years. Mr Waddell was assassinated. Mr Hinckson is now in remand. If Burnham had done all of that, they would have roamed the earth denouncing him. I live in this country and I have a moral obligation to it because I love it. And I because I love it, I will do my best to expose those who sit in the comfort of European and North American modernity and support authoritarian rule in Guyana. I fought that authoritarian rule under Burnham, and I intend to fight it under Mr Jagdeo. Yours faithfully, Frederick Kissoon By victoriaguy Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   THOSE WHO GRAB BEFORE THEY LOOK, HAVE TO LIE THEMSELVES OUT OF TROUBLE tally you can pat yourself on the back until it dislocates your arm, it cannot change or alter the facts as they stand. Without examining the reason behind the protest activities, you went into a spiel about black people blaming others for their predicament and wanting things from others. I take the time to read what you guys write before I respond to it because you always twist and turn from one post to the next. I write for the world that is not subjective, that will read all of our posts, and I highlight the inconsistencies so that a word image can be constructed from what is put out here. No amount of "woulda coulda" scenarios with regard to the cause of the protest can alter or change the disconnection between your outpourings and the reality. I now attach a newspaper article that demonstrate how looney you guys are in your analysis of this protest. Protesters attempt to disrupt Carifesta launch April 24, 2008 As the protests against the issue of the Channel 6 suspension from the airwaves continued, protesters attempted to disrupt last evenings launch of the tenth Caribbean Festival of Arts (Carifesta) even while President Bharrat Jagdeo expressed hope that the regional festival would bring unity. Just before the official start of the proceeding, a small group of mainly women raised their voices shouting No Carifesta and We want Sharma among other slogans. Ringing a bell and blowing whistles the women shouted their slogans for a few minutes before the police attempted to restore order. Some persons in the crowd also attempted to calm them down. During this time, a Stabroek News reporter was accused by some of the protesters of being from the state-owned NCN TV and Channel 65 and they apparently believed this was so and when the reporter took out a few photographs they shouted that they did not want NCN or Channel 65 there because they does tell lies. As the protesters chanted their slogans, this did not appear to have any effect on officials sitting on the other side of the Cenotaph, but hundreds of persons, who were there for the launch looked on as a few of the more vocal protesters were hastily led away by the police. It was not clear whether they were arrested but after they had been moved off, and as the programme got underway, chants were still occasionally heard from the back of the large crowd though not enough to prevent persons from enjoying the show. During President Jadgeos address, he urged that the regional arts festival bring people together and I need to add the government and opposition too. But at the ending of the proceedings, as the President was leaving, a group of protesters quickly converged on him but his security detail prevented them from getting too close. Shouting about the CNS TV 6 suspension and the high cost of living and banging empty tin cans the protesters shouted out at Jadgeo as he was driven away. Since the suspension of CNS TV6 licence for four months by President Jagdeo, the opposition PNCR has vowed that if it was not lifted that there would be protests to make Carifesta unmanageable, a stance that Culture Minister Dr Frank Anthony slammed as unreasonable. Following a protest march around the city last Friday, which was supported by hundreds of persons, the PNCR had written to the Caricom Chairman and Secretary-General about their concerns and also mounted a picketing exercise at Caricom Headquarters. Another such exercise was held on Tuesday during the meeting of Cabinet and another was slated for yesterdays launch. The PNCR in a statement had said that it is actively putting measures in place to continue demonstrating its concern about such critical issues as the cost of living, the breaches of the Constitution, the torturing of our citizens, among other matters, by holding more picketing exercises and rallies and meetings in different parts of the country. VG: Imagine a crowd of mainly black women calling for the re-instating of the right to broadcast of an Indian owned Television Station that examines more than any other station does, the grass roots concerns of Indians in Guyana. It is Sharma that poor Indians call first when they have issues. Imagine someone responding to this protest by labeling black people as creating anger and chaos, of always blaming others for their problems, of always wanting something from others. This is what is being put forth as an example of new age intellectualism. An intellectualism incapable of parsing the nuances in an event, but vituperates on "woulda and coulda" scenarios. I want people to examine this thread in context, not in the oblique pattern that seem to be popular with these masqueraders. You cannot, as a matter of political convenience, excise the seed from a mango ipso facto because your intial examination of it dealt only with the outside. You cannot change facts to account for your omissions or shortcomings. Live with it. By victoriaguy Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   LIGHTSKIN AND TALLY-A SYMBIOTIC INTERSECTION OF GIGO Lightskin you are the one who posted racial comments in here remember. You are the one who said blackmen are no good and that you were going to the Dominican Republic with a white man. You are the one who said that a beautiful black woman was an abberation. Now let me deal with some of your points. You are as mendacious as a cheap watch, which is not surprising. As for dying my hair. I am a proud blackman who have never assumed the artificiality of such things. And if you wish to go there I can analyse your alterations and physicality in language appropriate for where your mind reside. I will get to that later because I am just getting started. I said Burnham maybe played boopeep with the electoral process to keep those like you lightskin, who just hate black for being black, from making decisions on the life of black people. Imagine a Minister of the Government or someone in a decision making position with the hateful prejudice you exhibited in this forum. And look at the end result. The people of Linden are prevented from accessing information because of marginalizing with respect to media operation. I will not waste time on you because everyone in here who can read and were reading at the time is conversant with your views. You may attempt to change that reality by cunning art, but the selective amnesia you exhibit afflicts no one else. So now tally you are falling back on "well it would have happened anyway". You now are claiming the Carifesta protest would have happened any way. What facts do you have to substantiate this supposition other than the need to, as I said heretofore, fabricate a point to argue against. This kind of pulling things out your arse is the last refuge of intellectual scoundrels. Let's deal with facts, not your "it woulda happen anyway". Corbin and other PNC leadfers went to Lusignan and expressed their sympathy with the bereaved. You are clutching at straws. African Guyanese stayed in their homes because politicians were pointing fingers at them as a group and calling for revenge. The fact that the sister of the alleged suspect was cowardly gunned down is proof positive that was a sound choice. That is the problem with you one sided thinkers. You can never examine an issue wholistically. You start of at a tangent, and then you have to fabricate or make enormous leaps of logic in order to justify where you went. You now make the enormous leap of saying that your painting of black people as always blaming others is sound because the protest could have happened anyway. Well your nose coulda been a goalpost any way. We can get to any point of justification by using the "woulda and coulda happen anyway" style of argumentation. But only those who put their mouths in gear before engaging their other faculties need to go there. Now let me get back to this shallow female whose arrival in this forum created a furor due to her obscene and gutter infested racial vituperations. lightskin I refused to give credence to any opinion you express on Guyana. You are a dirty vessel. You came in here as a dirty vessel. After I went after you at the level of your initial outpourings, you laid out this scenario about you being mixed and your relatives discriminating against you because of the black in you. You then laid down the idiotic and self serving excuse for your nutty prejudice by claiming that "black women made you do it". Many in here, manifesting the goodness in their hearts that was contrary to your depiction of them and their female relatives, empathised with you and offered sympathetic advice, including llanus. Two of us did not. We know snakes when we see them, and our policy is, metaphorically, to crutch their heads rather than have them expunge their venom to our heels. They have the opportunity, in retrospect, to examine that history and see how deceitful you played them. Me, well I already described what I think about any female who cast aspersions on the womanhood that brought me into this world. I stand by those descriptions as they pertain to you as an individual. like I said, you are a dirty vessel, and nothing clean can come out of a mind with the kind of putrid racial outpourings that incidented your arrival in this forum. What is more an example of tunnel or narrow vision and intelligence than a mindset that believes that the physical characteristics they inherited from one side of a racial equation made them more beautiful than the entirety of another group. What is more hypocritical than someone who wrote in this forum about her prefference for color, and boasted that she was going on vacation to the Dominican Republic with her White Man, to now wax historically about white supremacy. When did you make the metamorphosis, when did you experience the epiphany that suddenly opened your eyes? We have seen your face when you peeped in the door, and it was contorted with hate and resentment. That you now act as though you were an avid embracer of the rainbow reality of this world is pitiful, nay an example of the level of deceit that fuels your output. What the hell are you talking about people being out of a job because they are under qualified tally. This shows how backward you come to this argument. Everyday people of all descriptions who complete University education depart Guyana because they cannot find jobs. Just where the hell have you been? With everything that has gome before, this is the most ignorant of the conclusions you have made. Have you never explored the millieu of analysis about the brain drain that is afflicting Guyana. If your knowledge and understanding of this, one of the most analysed aspects of the reality of Guyana, is so deficient, you are less than qualified to offer the kind of expert analysis you are engaged in. ARE YOU SERIOUS? By victoriaguy Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   Tally, VG has tunnel vision, which only fuels his double standards People like VG are set in their ways. They see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear and believe what they want to believe. The full story behind any event becomes irrelevent since he interprets everything at his discrestion and cherry picks only that which serves his interest. Its called tunnel vision Tally. And it is the most dangerous malady affecting humankind and the greatest impediment to the preservation of human rights for all. VG's tunnel vision hence leads him to affirm that it is okay for blacks in Guyana to practice race politics and maintain control by any means necessary to ensure that African interests are preserved. However, it becomes morally and inherently wrong when East Indians do the same. Such logic may sound detestable but it is a sentiment shared by many. I thus beg the question. If a KKK member affirmed that white supremacy has to prevail to ensure that whites will never be suppressed and oppresed by people of color who make up a numerical majority in the world, would he render our support. What If abusive husbands all over the world assert that they are forced to abuse their wives to supress any chance of their wives abusing them, would we accept their argument. Finally if Amerindians, a group that has been long overlooked and denigrated by Africans and East Indians, decided tommorow to form a terrorist organization to subvert the PNC and PPP parties in order to assume power and dominate Guyanese politics and our resources, and legitimize their actions by stating that they are preserving their interests, would VG support and legitimize their cause. I don't think so. By lightskin Sunday, April 27, 2008 Reply   besides the point... did it ever occur to you that maybe change is moving at a slow pace because only few of us are embracing it? The rest are doing exactly what you do justifying the same old crap...the next best avenue for you is the name calling because there is nothing else to say, you're in denial. Wake up and see that there is no way on earth that in these times we are going to go somewhere with that kind of attitude you want to justify... By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   Are you serious? Are you seriously going to say to me that there is no possibility that the carifest protest couldn't have occurred if there wasn't that suspension? Are you kidding me? I'm not going to follow your path on your name calling trail simply because that's not the matter at hand. The issue was WERE THEY RIGHT OR NOT? I say no they were not. I also said that in general protests is not a sign of working for something it's a sign of force to have what we seek given to us. Seems like you misinterpreted too when I said our ancestors were GIVEN freedom for lack of a better term: they fought for it and WON their freedom. Why would you want to bring up the fact that is was done before in the first place? That's no reason to say either of them were right. And last time I checked, education is free is Guyana what the hell are you talking about ancestors paying for it with they three hundred years of free labor that's not my point and it's more of a shame to even consider that because if that's the case, we're sending all their labour in vain! Because we're not making use of it. That's why I opt to say we need to educate ourselves. Consider the statistics of black people who are in school now compared to the amount walking on the streets without a job? Are they without a job because they are BLACK or because they don't have qualifications? Why then did our ancestors fight so hard what we now take for granted. When are you going to realise that you're moving in a circle? I only entered this debate because it's people like you who want to see people treated better, yet you act like our people cannot be blamed in no form or the other. How are you going to say that some damn protest is going to bring about change? It's just creating some tension to do what? NOTHING!! because absolutely nothing was done... Why didn't you take your statements a few steps back and say the PNC didn't protest when they had that huge killing at Lusignan and Bartica? How come they didn't join that protest too which I think served no purpose because nothing was accomplished when it was all said and done. Your basic problem is the fact that i criticised that PNC LED PROTEST. It's not a matter of party or of race it's the fact that A PROTEST MAKES NO SENSE anymore. And the only reason I opinned to say that we push the protest first in our country as Black people is because that's exactly what we do... Open your eyes old person, and stop using the actions of our ancestors to justify the nonsense you want to encourage today, they were under a whole lot more pressure than we are today. The world is full of the "intelligent" who like I said think they have it all down packed, but what is causing you to avoid examining the rest of views? Oh yea your one tracked mind that can never blame your own people. It's always the fault of someone else's leadership and I'm tired of that bullcrap. Be a leader by yourself. How can you do that without education? You only take the points that you can twist a few words on and then come to me and say oh you're stupid. I'll just say you are not REAL enough! so don't come to me with you nonsense coz I'll welcome it any time. By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   Ah wha mek yuh hate ahwee coolie suh Me sabee di story, When yuh been young, ah wan pretty pretty coolie gyal, wid lang silky hair and sapodilla brown skin name Shaku bruk yuh heart. Yuh been like she bad bad. Aya been deh lang time. She been mek yuh roti and dhal and been mash yuh foot and back. Buh eventually she been lef yuh fuh want chinee man. Ever since, yuh been vex wid di whole coolie race an yuh out fuh seek revenge. But me deh yah fuh tell yuh dat ahwee coolie or in me case dougla/bouviander/mullatto still love yuh an me go find wan nadda coolie gyal fuh mend yuh heart. Suh yuh nah gaffa cuss collie na mo. By lightskin Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   Victoria Guy I think the black shoe polish you use to dye your hair has seeped into your brain. As usually, your tone is condescending, your perspectives are biased and your arguments are shallow at best. First you strut in here like an alpha male thinking you have the authority to psychoanalyze me, negate my experiences, assume that I'm aligned with the PPP, belittle Tally by asserting that she is engaged in a debate way over his head all while rudely calling her a nut. You then go on a moral high horse by invoking the principle that civil rights are "endowments from God" and in the same breath assert that the PNC was just in impeding the electoral process to ensure black dominance. This is inherently biased, racist, ethnocentric, and unfair. What you fail to realize is that impeding the electoral process, which explicitly denies certain groups their civil rights, has grave implications. In the Guyanese context during the PNC dictatorship, the implication was that black domination would mean Indian subjugation. In other words, since Indians had a numerical advantage, and could easily assume the highest levels of office if free and fair elections were held, East Indians and others who opposed the dictatorship had to be intimidated, bullied, threatened and harrassed in order to maintain Burhnam's autocracy. If not, how else could Burhnam preserve his power in a country where his supporters did not have a numeral advantage to legitimatley keep him in power. In any case, according to VG and Superero, it was just a matter of supressing them so they wont supress us. It sounds alot like the Republican argument for invading Iraq and wanting to invade Iran. Lets destroy them first before they destroy us. Lets police the world and ensure that our enemies do not develop weapons of mass destruction even though we bombed Hiroshima. What a bunch of crap. If you were a critical thinker and more analytical, you would consider the possibility that the PPP,s current "ethnocracy" is a result of their fear of black domination, which they experienced under the PNC reign. Essentially they are operating under the same premise that their African counterparts utilized during the PNC's rule. However, since Africans are no longer in control, you no longer feel that this is a moral way of running a country Talk about double standards. By lightskin Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   RIGHT BACK AT YA The Carifesta protest was generated by the suspension of Sharma's TV broadcast. There would have been no protest at Carifesta if that suspension had not occurred, so it cannot be surgically removed from the issue in order to facilitate your argument. That is what I mean about your inability to examine things further than the surface. Here we have a protest at an entertainment event that was triggered by another event, and what do we have from you. A bunch of inane accusations against black people to the effect that they are blaming others, while they are in fact protesting for the rights of one of those others. Based on these unequivocal realities I have every justification in proclaiming you guys looney. You are the one who began hurling dirt at a race. Not only are you looney, but you seem to be a linear descendant of Annanias as well. Let me re-post the begining of the argument so that people can see the disconnection that defines your thinking. llanus wrote: While we march The present posture of the PNC is indeed a positive one and they must be commended for that. I would also hope that the abuse of the Chief Magistrate and the illegal incarceration of Oliver Hinckson will certainly be matters of concern to all Guyanese. By llanus Monday, April 21, 2008 lightskin jumped in with: llanus are u crazy do you really think that the pnc's protest against carifesta is smart and good for the country and its future By lightskin Thursday, April 24, 2008 The idea that people should prioritize cultural entertainment over the meatier issues of freedom of speech etc drove me to respond: What!!!!! The wicked that hold people in economic and social deprivation always require them to sing and dance and make merry. During slavery the plantation owners would invite guest and have the captive slaves dance and sing, in order to convey the impression that they were happy with their lot. I suspect that the motives of officialdom and their cheering section in and of Guyana ain't much different three centuries later. What a bunch of crap. The PPP protested Carifesta during its inarguration in 1972. They also protested the Non aligned conference of Foreign ministers held in Guyana that same year. Hypocrisy thy name is Guyanese, and those who earn the description are as shallow water in a flat plate. By victoriaguy Thursday, April 24, 2008 The analogy I made with slavery was entirely relevant and contextual, because it challenged the premise that symbolism was more important than substance. And then you jumped in with: PNC Protest Our history is indeed a weapon for moving towards the future but come on it's not a weapon to create anger and stir chaos, it's a weapon for us to reveal ourselves from the experiences of the past. How many times are we going to use slavery to justify the nonsense we do today? Why is it so easy to try to make another feel guilty so that as Arof-Guyanese we can have our way? We have the best weapon to combat all of this and yet people look to say that the protest is a good thing. There is no base to use the fact that the PPP once protested similar issues as a reason to say the PNC was right. In Guyana, we have free education, as Black people who so desire to get out of "the system" we ought to educate ourselves so that we can understand to fairly manage whatever we have. Until then, we are always going to be in positions like these. The PNC's protest is, in fact doing no good for the country as a whole and yet many of us are so proud to say they did a good thing. It's seemingly good but at the same time, it highlights how corrupt and one tracked our minds are because if the Leader of the Opposition of our country can lead such a protest, what do you think others are going to say about Guyana as a whole? They're not going to see "the wicked" as some may call it, they see the country in general: in a state of chaos and disunity. Slavery was abolished a long time ago. It's time for people to get on their own feet and fight for what they want in a more positive and productive manner and stop using race and slavery as an excuse to have things given to them. Our ancestors sought for freedom and it was given to them, the sad thing is that only a few of us take advantage of that freedom and try to bring ourselves up using what was given, free education and an opportunity to take control. The rest, continuously play the blame game and of course are continuously LEFT BEHIND...so much that they cannot even see and the worse they get, the more they blame, not seeing that they're the ones going wrong... By tally Friday, April 25, 2008 I want people to follow the train of this discussion to see how weird and silly are the arguments those like you advance under the illusion that you have arrived intellectually. You are the one that began hurling race specific accusations in this thread. You are the one with the infantile understanding of history that allows you to make the ridiculous assertion that our ancestors were "given their freedom", as if somehow this was a gift that was bestowed upon them. Our Ancestors were not given free education stupid. They paid for that and ours by providing more than three hundred years of free labour in every society in which they worked free for more than three hundred yeras. I would argue that the cost of that labour was more than compensatory for the education we received. In addition, we paid taxes into the system for that. Your reading and comprehension of history is at a third grade level. Because anyone above that would not make a statement that our ancestors were given their freedom, or were given free education. Now let me show how utterly vaccuous your assault on the motives of the PNC is, as well as that of the lightskin who earlier in this forum stated exactly what she felt about black people. The PNC is leading a protest that was triggered by the suspension of the Television Broadcasting Licence of an Indian Guyanese. The PNC did not indulge in protest when Donna Herod was gunned down, when Marcyn King was gunned down. Like all of those who can't wait to attack a gathering of black women you and lightskin began this tirade about angering people and causing chaos. There can be no peace in the absence of justice. Martin Luther King said that. Before you open your pie hole and attempt to censor and critique the actions of people, at least spend some time to go over the issue from bow to stern, in order to ensure that your arguments are balanced. But then again, it is not balance you seek. It is that warm and glowy feeling idiots get when they say something extremely stupid, all the while knowing not that they know not. By victoriaguy Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   sorry about those repeats I apoligise for those repeats... By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   here's one for you... VG, you're the type of grown folks that think they know it all so the minute a youth jumps up with a new idea, they shut them down. I'm not that youth darling. I'm from a different set, and if you want to put it a different bottom house set that acts with a MIND OF HER OWN. No one is going to tell me, you should do it because they've always done it, that's just ridiculous, you're ruling out the possibility of change which is essential for growth. Never once did I come here and praised an Indian for being Indian and neither did I say they are the best set of people in Guyana. I, however am going to say if we are going wrong, maybe we are! How do you seek to improve yourself if you only talking dirt about another man because of the colour of his skin while the other man keeps at his business making himself and his people better? You answer too much based on race and I'm not trying to be racist, I'm identifying an underlying issue amongst our very own people. You act as though we have this "do no wrong" attitude and it's just not true and it's not possible! so be a little more realistice with your views before you open your mouth, rather before you seek to reply to me. Until then stop being one-sided. By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   here's one for you... VG, you're the type of grown folks that think they know it all so the minute a youth jumps up with a new idea, they shut them down. I'm not that youth darling. I'm from a different set, and if you want to put it a different bottom house set that acts with a MIND OF HER OWN. No one is going to tell me, you should do it because they've always done it, that's just ridiculous, you're ruling out the possibility of change which is essential for growth. Never once did I come here and praised an Indian for being Indian and neither did I say they are the best set of people in Guyana. I, however am going to say if we are going wrong, maybe we are! How do you seek to improve yourself if you only talking dirt about another man because of the colour of his skin while the other man keeps at his business making himself and his people better? You answer too much based on race and I'm not trying to be racist, I'm identifying an underlying issue amongst our very own people. You act as though we have this "do no wrong" attitude and it's just not true and it's not possible! so be a little more realistice with your views before you open your mouth, rather before you seek to reply to me. Until then stop being one-sided. By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   here's one for you... VG, you're the type of grown folks that think they know it all so the minute a youth jumps up with a new idea, they shut them down. I'm not that youth darling. I'm from a different set, and if you want to put it a different bottom house set that acts with a MIND OF HER OWN. No one is going to tell me, you should do it because they've always done it, that's just ridiculous, you're ruling out the possibility of change which is essential for growth. Never once did I come here and praised an Indian for being Indian and neither did I say they are the best set of people in Guyana. I, however am going to say if we are going wrong, maybe we are! How do you seek to improve yourself if you only talking dirt about another man because of the colour of his skin while the other man keeps at his business making himself and his people better? You answer too much based on race and I'm not trying to be racist, I'm identifying an underlying issue amongst our very own people. You act as though we have this "do no wrong" attitude and it's just not true and it's not possible! so be a little more realistice with your views before you open your mouth, rather before you seek to reply to me. Until then stop being one-sided. By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   here's one for you... VG, you're the type of grown folks that think they know it all so the minute a youth jumps up with a new idea, they shut them down. I'm not that youth darling. I'm from a different set, and if you want to put it a different bottom house set that acts with a MIND OF HER OWN. No one is going to tell me, you should do it because they've always done it, that's just ridiculous, you're ruling out the possibility of change which is essential for growth. Never once did I come here and praised an Indian for being Indian and neither did I say they are the best set of people in Guyana. I, however am going to say if we are going wrong, maybe we are! How do you seek to improve yourself if you only talking dirt about another man because of the colour of his skin while the other man keeps at his business making himself and his people better? You answer too much based on race and I'm not trying to be racist, I'm identifying an underlying issue amongst our very own people. You act as though we have this "do no wrong" attitude and it's just not true and it's not possible! so be a little more realistice with your views before you open your mouth, rather before you seek to reply to me. Until then stop being one-sided. By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   here's one for you... VG, you're the type of grown folks that think they know it all so the minute a youth jumps up with a new idea, they shut them down. I'm not that youth darling. I'm from a different set, and if you want to put it a different bottom house set that acts with a MIND OF HER OWN. No one is going to tell me, you should do it because they've always done it, that's just ridiculous, you're ruling out the possibility of change which is essential for growth. Never once did I come here and praised an Indian for being Indian and neither did I say they are the best set of people in Guyana. I, however am going to say if we are going wrong, maybe we are! How do you seek to improve yourself if you only talking dirt about another man because of the colour of his skin while the other man keeps at his business making himself and his people better? You answer too much based on race and I'm not trying to be racist, I'm identifying an underlying issue amongst our very own people. You act as though we have this "do no wrong" attitude and it's just not true and it's not possible! so be a little more realistice with your views before you open your mouth, rather before you seek to reply to me. Until then stop being one-sided. By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   the best thing misinterpretting... I think we speak two differnt types of english professor because I see you going wrong again... if I clearly recalled, I said our past SHOULD BE USED AS A WEAPON IN A MORE PRODUCTIVE MANNER... you seem to want to use our past THE SAME WAY IT HAS BEEN DONE FOR LIKE FOREVER...who are you? have you ever heard of changing? what is there to fear? what do you have to lose now when so many black youths suffered then and after years of protests are still suffering? It's high time to turn to something else. I don't care if the PPP or PNC is black or indian, frankly I don't give a damn what colour they are, bottom line is they both mess up and you who seemingly want to encourage us as youths to keep messing up with the same dumb methods they both used are not going to get us anywhere (especially if we depended on your use of english language and your nice play on words) And my cute little cliche' came from Maya Angelou, so wake up brotherman! By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   Seems to me pot telling the kettle his bottom is black... My dear english professor VG, once again you go misinterpreting with your english nonsense. I was never on the topic of C.N Sharma's issue, rather on that of the Carifesta protest. I wasn't on the issue of saying black people this and that rather I was saying that in general, if you were black, white, orange, green whatever protest doesn't work anymore! It's a fact that you just can't seem to live with. Supererro, even picked that up and agreed with it. Seems to me like you just have the basic problem with the fact that I am opposing the decision of the PNC to lead in what I call an unnecessary protest. I don't care who's in power you can't change a damn thing if people just sit on their backsides and say "oh the Government has been doing us wrong years now." That's like you saying to this generation of young people oh when we want this, we have to protest for it because the government always do us wrong. You not saying oh work to be somebody in postion so that you can change the situation. How do you seriously expect to see a change english professor? You're going to live in someone else's shadows all the time. And besides why is it always an insult to you to say that the majority of our people don't make an effort to get up and get, but say to them "let's go protest this government" they're going to jump up? It's true! It's not the way you'd want to see it but that's how it is. I'm not debating CN Sharma's issue as much as that of Carifesta because I think the Carifesta protest was baseless and I entered this debate only to say that there is no reason to justify that protest in the first place because it's in our history to protest and tons of years later we still have to protest. It's time we try something else, professor. But seems to me that maybe you too have a problem comprehending, because I on one hand see a problem and I give a solution with alternatives for us as people who want to move forward; you on the other hand see a problem and justify it with the fact that "IT WAS DONE BEFORE" oh and the best one: the PPP did it too so the PNC should do it...that makes no sense. Our generation is not even like that anymore. Offer us something that is more fulfilling that lousy protests everytime the ball drops. Explain to me too professor, what are you "working" towards when you go protesting Carifesta? If I were to join that with what Supererro said the purpose was it was to show the world... what the hell is the world going to do for you? If you want to show them what is it that you expect of them when they? Isn't it for them to intervene? And you more put a coma behind something done in your history because you seem so damn one tracked that a protest is all you know. Of course you're seeking to have something given to you in a Protest, if you were working for it hell you wouldn't have protested anyway. But see some of us think because we're a professor or something lil' big we get the right to say oh I know what they're doing is right and that's bull. Moreso, you're being totally ridiculous that damn embracing line. All I said was that I agree with the individual's statement. Call a spade a spade, and so what if she was wrong the first time, does that mean that her view is always wrong? Seriously, get over yourself, you DON'T know it all and a protest is crap especially one that seeks to harm the economy of our country and it's not working I mean it's obvious because that protest DID NOT WORK! because no one came stepping in to say I see the drama in your country I'm here to help... so what's your point? show me a successful protest today, will you? By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   What!!!!! What realm of reality are you referrencing lightskin? Your arguments are vitiated by the skewed prism through which you view the world. You cannot objectively examine the situation of Guyana because you already admitted that you have a preferrence for color. Your views are thus skewed by a shallow obsession with a biological inherited physical characteristic. I am sorry, but I do not suffer from amnesia. Here we have tally arguing that people should forget the past in their analysis of their situation, while giving props to you who is doing exactly the opposite by blaming Burnham for the incompetence of your Indian ethnic political party. That means that you are both utterly incoherent in what you are laying out here. About the only thing that binds you together is this notion that black people are lazy good for nothing who are always protesting, blaming others for something, and always wanting something from others. Either you were nurtured on the same knee under the same bottom house environment, or take your instructions from the same sources. For me it does not matter which. You are both indulging in surface dialectics you picked up only God knows where. By victoriaguy Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   I hear you Tally, but....................... I do apologize Tally but it just amazes me how conflicting and unfair people in this world are. Superero's two recent posts greatly exemply the double standard that exists in Guyana. To imply that the PNC was legitimate in engaging in unscrupulous politics to ensure black dominance and in the same breath blast the PPP government for doing the same for their constituents is absolutly preposterous. To zero in on a speech made in Babu John but turn a blind eye on the fact that Hoyt had a history of inciting PNC demonstrators to attack East Indians and their property after loosing every election since 1992 shows that Guyana is filled with people who have no genuine interest in human rights and the advancement of democratic ideals. As long as the majority of Guyanese, African and East Indian continue to support incompetent regimes and political parties, and rewrite history and distort facts, Guyana will always be damned. And the Jagdeos and Corbins of the future will always have a jobs By lightskin Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   THE FOLLY OF FABRICATING POSITIONS TO LAUNCH A FAVOURITE ARGUMENT tally you and papi indeed have to be birds of a feather, because you both commit cardinal sins of comprehension. Imagine being given a thesis question about the constitutionality about suspending the licence of a broadcaster, and producing a paper in response about black people always asking people for something. That is in effect how you arrived into this debate. I tutored remedial english to many like you during my sojourn in a New York College. You never seem to read and grasp the context of any argument or debate, but make leaps and assumptions by fabricating positions from which to launch your favourite arguments. They call it putting your mouths or keyboards in gear before engaging your brain. By victoriaguy Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   LET ME MAKE IT PLAIN tally I regret to say that you are either an ignoramus, or someone who is in a debate way over his or her depth. Who the hell is asking anyone to give them anything. You belong to the group whose ability to follow a debate and extract the context is lost in the quest to pour out tired cliches you picked up from some black right wing nut farm. Civil rights and equality under the law are not handouts you nut. Those are endowments from God or nature, take your pick, and every man and woman on this planet has the right to demand and protest for them. That is the problem I always get in with people whose intellectualizing comes from putting a coma behind something they heard, and then begining to run crazy with it, regardless of its applicability, or contextual appropriateness. The fact that you automatically embrace the view of someone who blamed black women for the hatred she had for black people, as opposed to the relatives she claimed hated the blackside of her, is demonstrable indicative of the depth of your thinking and analytical capacity. Light skin the slip you entered this debate with is showing up in living colour. Me and Roses1 cautioned them back then, when they were being taken in by your deceitful charade after your racist rant against black people and black women. The indian racist in you, the one you identified when you admitted that your Indian relatives hated the black part of you, has never the departed the reasoning you bring to this debate. The PPP is an ethnocracy. And if as an Indian it is ok for you guys to cannonize Jagan then black people have every right to cannonize Burnham. He might have played boopeep with the electoral process, but we see today what he was trying to protect black people from. So you can take the crap you are spewing here and put it where the sun don't shine. Your entire contribution to this debate is a manifestation of the inner struggle of your Indian self to psychologically exterminate the physical blackness you so hate. Your history is in this forum. I know it, llanus knows it, superero knows it. You have absolutely no moral authority to make a judgement on the conduct of black people. You already admitted that you were nutured to hate that part of yourself remember. I can tell who you are tally by your propensity to fabricate a position from which to launch an assault on blackness. So whether you are stepping fletch rolling your eyes and testifying how good massa is to we, and that we should stop complaining, or one of the chronicle's effervescent belly crawling behind the back racist, it does not make a hell of a lot difference to me. Bottom line is that you entered a debate about protest for the rights of an Indian broadcaster, with an argument that blacks are always blaming someone or begging for something. Either your comprehension of english context sucks, or you are just one dribble away from looney. By victoriaguy Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   Here we go again... Lightskin, why you letting yourself get into that whole PPP vs. PNC debate? As far as I'm concerned PPP and PNC need to be put in a barrel n out to sea... That same "old school" idea has people arguing time again about the same dumb stuff and move away from trying to change things. Let those who agree with the PNC and PPP do their things, in my eyes they both did good and bad for the country regardless of the colour of people's skin. The question is what do all you people in this forum have in mind for change? Stop looking back and seeing who did this and did that... what do you think can be done as the way forward? By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   Victoria Guy Out of curiosity, did you leave Guyana before or after the ascension of the PPP party. By lightskin Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   superero, your views and arguments are as warped as they come Your reasoning is twisted. You are blatantly inconsistant and unfair. First, you put up a post titled "Disregard for Constitutional Rights!!!!",essentially addressing the unfair treatment meted upon C.N. Sharma for allowing his program to be used as a platform against PPP's unscrupulous practices. Then in another post, you assert "Burnham knew Cheddi, Janet and the PPP so well, the he decided as long as he was alive, the PPP WOULD NOT RETURN TO POWER and rightly so." Now lets put this into context and see its implications. Burnham according to Superero had a right to undermine the democratic process since he "knew Cheddi, Janet and the PPP so well." Okay......how absurd. So let me get this straight. Burhnam realized he could not fairly and legitimately assume Guyana's highest office because his supporters were not a majority. "Rightly so" he sabatoged the electoral process, impeded free speech, and intimidated, maligned and even killed anyone who posed a threat to his dictatorship. And this is what Superero supports. So let me ask you a question Superero? Are you for democracy and the advancement of constitutional rights, or are you not? It seems like you are sending mixed messages and are conveying double standards. This is precisely why supporters of the PNC like yourself are in no authority to speak on matters relating to civil rights. Civil Rights only became a matter of "concern" since you guys lost power. Its such a joke. All of the sudden, the PNC wants to protect peoples civil liberties, call for power sharing all while rewriting history by falsely creating a noble past and canonizing Burhnam as a saint. This is a negative consequence of being "old school." Being "old school" and bearing witness to events does not necessarily make you a reliable source of truth. There are many Germans who witnessed the holocaust and today as elders still adamantely deny it ever happening . Though many consider President Bush to be Americas worse president, there are many staunch Republicans who in fifty years will say he was the most honest, descent, God fearing man in America. So no, I don't want to be "Old School." The "Old School" tunnel vision, mentality that encourages people to rewrite history only serves to hinder us from working within the realm of reality. By lightskin Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   RE: Supererro I think you're mixing my comments up with that of "lightskin". I'm not for comparing the actions of the two political parties...just something for you to consider in your responses... By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   Suppererro No I'm not papi, but ironically he's a very good friend of mine so I guess birds of a feather do flock together. Just so you know, we're a group of young people. I don't know much about lightskin but from the "old skool" statement, I'd assume that person is just as young. But understand this, this is not a matter of being selfish. It's the idea that like u rightly said to show "the world to see that under the glamour and spectacle, all is not well on the water front." What's the purpse of doing that? Is the world going to barge in and say oh my dear people we're so sorry for you let us help you? Is that the idea? Why is it that we can't just deal with this on our own? Don't you think that it's going to actually get to the point in time when "world" says "we're tired of these people knocking on our door...are they ever going to help themselves?" That I guess is the idea of Papi or Lightskin or even myself...I mean so the PPP messed up and so has the PNC. The thing about it is we seek to change what is going on using the same old methods and it is simply not working any more. A classical example was that of the most recent protest: Carifesta. They made a huge scene for what has turned out to be nothing, because did the Carifesta run off? Of course it did! That's all I'm saying. I'm not criticising old school or asking how much wrong the PPP did or the PNC I'm saying we need new methods. Care less about what people have to say and do what you have to. According to someone's statement about the president saying something about "Black people are lazy" if that is untrue why do we seek to make a big deal out of it if we know different? Just do what you have to do for this system to work your way, and there's no way it's going to work by encouraging a protest every single time something goes wrong. I've mentioned before the idea about examining ourselves... do you notice (and I'm not jumping on you or anyone else for this) but do any of you who seek to say the government is always wrong, ever say maybe just maybe Black people in general need a new strategy. Your old school ideas worked fine in old school times but in a world where each man can safely get all that he wants only if he's willing to work for it, the right way and not the short way, no one is going to pay mind to protestors... By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   Disregard for Constitutional Rights!!!! The closure of Channel Six shows a disregard for constitutional rights April 26, 2008 Dear Editor, The closing of Channel 6 for four months by President Jagdeo is indisputable proof of the wanton disregard of constitutional rights that now seriously undermines the quality of life in Guyana. CN Sharma, the owner of the station, though not as erudite and urbane as others in the media is a staunch critic of the many abuses of the present government. He has, in recent weeks, allowed the main opposition parties to use the station; an opportunity that is constantly denied them by the government controlled Channel 11. Mr Jagdeos edict is based on the rebroadcast of a call, which was deemed a threat to his life. The Presidents decision is disturbing for several reasons. He evaluated the facts of a matter in which he was the aggrieved party, and also imposed punishment. It is a fundamental tenet of fairness that requires a party who is a part of an action not to sit in judgment of the facts, and certainly not in the penalty phase where the partys bias may tarnish his objectivity. It is plainly unthinkable that in this modern world a Head of State would engage in such untoward conduct even in a country masquerading as a democracy. The stench of prejudice is so overwhelming that reasonable Guyanese must feel ashamed of their Presidents irrational conduct. The caller was anonymous. There is no evidence connecting the caller to the owner of the station. Owners of television stations must behave responsibly. The rebroadcast of the offending call on February 22 and February 23 does not, however, rise to the level of irresponsibility to justify this closing. The owner said he was unaware of the rebroadcast. A highly plausible explanation in a business environment with various employees. An examination of the language shows it to be distasteful but not a real threat. The caller said in relevant part, Because look at these killings and nobody cant give account about these peoples lives and Jagdeo going to take a high risk going and tell people to calm down; hes going to bury the dead bodies. If anything going to happen to my family, I am going to kill Jagdeo. These words reveal an upset person. If security considerations compelled caution, then the caller should be punished, not the station. The call was devoid of content and style to move others to serious action. Justice Oliver Holmes, the noted American jurist, has stated that Eloquence may spark treason. It would demand more than extrapolation to categorize the call as one that would ignite imagination and rebellious action. Mr Jagdeo also acted without the advice of the Advisory Committee on Broadcasting ( ACB) whose explicit responsibility is to advise the relevant minister on compliance by licensees and to recommend sanctions for violations. The President is constrained by the specific language of a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) signed on November 7, 2001, by the late leader of the Opposition, Desmond Hoyte, and himself, and which reads in pertinent part: The Parties agree that the Minister, in the exercise of his power pursuant to the Act and the wireless Regulations made hereunder, with respect to television station licences, will act in accordance with the advice tendered by the Advisory Committee on Broadcasting. One of the principal reasons for the signing of the agreement was that the ACB was a temporary body, and was to be replaced once the long delayed broadcast legislation was enacted. Another signal reason was that the inherent political partisanship and bias that attended the review of a compliance controversy by a government minister would be tempered, if not removed, by requiring the minister to follow the recommendation of the ACB. Mr Kit Nascimento in a letter to the Stabroek News of April 19, 2008, said cavalierly that the government is not bound to the MOU because it is a political agreement. A pathetic pronouncement in the light of the political milieu in which the MOU was inked. The agreement was designed to settle ongoing issues that were contributing to unrest and serious mistrust between the main political factions within the country. If Mr Nascimentos position were to be followed, a vital article of governance would be taken away in an already troubled body politic. The Jagdeo juggernaut must be stopped. It has imprisoned Hinckson without any legal basis. There has been no inquest in the murder of Donna Herod. The killers of Ronald Waddell remain at large. Known drug lords have not been prosecuted. Corruption is still common in the precincts of government. Guyana is indeed doomed to failure unless decisive steps are taken to stop this assault on the fundamental rights of freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and freedom of conscience as guaranteed by the Constitution. Yours faithfully, The Brooklyn Chapter -PNCR By supererro Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   Listen Up! Tally, you remind me of someone called Papi. Is it you? Both of you are selfish individuals to say the least and let me say this, it is better to be old school than new school because what most of you know is what you were told, truth or untruth! I call a spade a spade and if you follow my little writings you may notice. You did not say in 1992 that the PPP had no right to return to power after 28 years in opposition and sabotaging almost everything that the PNC tried to build. I am not saying what I was told, I know! Burnham knew Cheddi, Janet and the PPP so well, the he decided as long as he was alive, the PPP WOULD NOT RETURN TO POWER and rightly so. What have they done in sixteen years? Continue to divide the masses! "It makes no sense you force people to give u this and give you that and then if you don't have the education to manage it you're back to square one: you can't help yourself and then you blame." True, but tell that to Jagdeo and his cabal! For your information, the PNC had always have better prepared & educated people to lead. Take a look at their shadow cabinet and educate yourselves. "I said it before and I'll say it again. The PNC is in no position or authority to serve as a watch dog or mouthpiece against the corruption so evident in the PPP party." I say you are wrong. Constitutionally, they have every right. As for corruption, at no time during the Burnham years did they even come close and you must know (my learnt friends) that power corrupts. With Desmond Hoyte, you dare not and if you did, you would be history when he found out. I was not told, I know. The PPP just don't give a damn! I do not have to be told about Robert Corbin, (you see that is the benefit of being old school) I know Robert Corbin and he has sinned, but then "he who is without sin, cast the first stone." He have every right as the leader of the PNC to lead the protest (which was long overdue). "You keep using the fact that protests were always done but the thing about it is that protests are not working anymore. It only serves now to show that we can't do anything better other than to protest. We don't wanna feel no pain so Protest. If this isn't right protest, oh please like the next best thing to do in our day in history as black people is to protest... come on get over it, work with what you have. Try something else, you know an ALTERNATIVE..." I agree with you 100% here Tally! In Guyana's case, protest is not the answer because I've learnt that if you cannot produce, you must perish, period! As for Carifesta and the selfishness of Lightskin, the idea (protest) is for the world to see that under the glamour and spectacle, all is not well on the water front. What is the use of making lots of money and the masses are hungry? By supererro Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   Tally VG is old school. His views are outdated. By lightskin Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   The protest can never be considered genuine if it is led by the PNC, sorry to burst your bubble African Guyanese have a right to protest. But many become understandably cynical when black protesters are led by the PNC. And rightfully so. The PNC was a dictatorship. The PNC rigged elections. The PNC bullied and intimidated political dissenters. The PNC debased Guyana's economy and stardard of living to such a point that many of its African Guyanese supporters had to flee Guyana for greener pastures. And because the PNC knows that it will never attain power fairly, giving that many vote along racial lines, it has historically incited its members to perform violent acts against the supporters of the winning opposition party. So yes people do become uneasy when African Guyanese take part in protest led by the PNC. Images of PNC led African Guyanese protesters chanting slow fire, more fire, and burning down half of Georgetown and throwing channa bombs in the vehicles of East Indian leaves an indelible mark. I said it before and I'll say it again. The PNC is in no position or authority to serve as a watch dog or mouthpiece against the corruption so evident in the PPP party. Thus PPP too is in no position to condemn the PNC. Any watch dog or mouth piece against political corruption has to come from voices outside of the two political parties. Plain and simple. You can't have a pedophile calling a rapist immoral. By lightskin Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   You're missing the point... The bottomline is history has shown time and again that protests gets us no where in the LONG RUN. Exactly what you do is pointing fingers. When Martin Luther King and many others protested civil rights, we got somewhere. My problem is it didn't get us far enough because still a day like today a vast majority of our people seek to put blame on others for them being down or poor or whatever you want to call it. Where as, had people gotten the right education when they sought equality, a day like today there would have been a whole lot more Barrack Obama's because of the fact that it would have been a root in our history. Not to always open your mouth and blame someone else but to examine yourself as an individual to see what you can do to improve yourself. It makes no sense you force people to give u this and give you that and then if you don't have the education to manage it you're back to square one: you can't help yourself and then you blame. And so I say again, protests get you nowhere because you spend so much time protesting you forget to educate yourselves on what to do when you get what you seek. Work for it and protesting is not a good job! What's the purpose of Robert Corbin leading a protest to Cancel or boycott Carifesta in Guyana? Why couldn't he say oh let's work to be apart rather than to break apart what is being built? You keep using the fact that protests were always done but the thing about it is that protests are not working anymore. It only serves now to show that we can't do anything better other than to protest. We don't wanna feel no pain so Protest. If this isn't right protest, oh please like the next best thing to do in our day in history as black people is to protest... come on get over it, work with what you have. Try something else, you know an ALTERNATIVE... By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   WHAT!!!!!!!!! What you call pointing fingers is the process of identifying the social ills that exist in society. A process I might add that is condemned only when it addresses issues of interest to people of African Descent. Show me an example of a group in Guyana that did not "point fingers" and do not "point fingers" at their concerns. You need to loose those facetious cliches, because most of the people in here exercise their minds and brains to a level where it becomes easy to see through them and the nothingness behind them. The president of Guyana and many Indians, including some who are opining on this issue presently, are not shy about pointing fingers at Africans for their inability to judge people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin. It is an example of how the impulse to deceive can lead people into amnesiac pontification. Take a handle and go back and examine the historical wisdom of these who accuse us of pointing fingers. The idiocy is manifested by either complete ignorance of the civil rights struggles in the US, or the usual tendency to regurgitate black iconic names and figures under the foolish impression that our knowledge of them are as sparing as yours. Because any intellectual examination of the civil rights struggles of African Americans would allow one to see the tandem operations of street protest and legal challenges to the established order. Do not throw out names like Thurgood Marshall to score points without knowledge of that particular history. His legal activism was not conducted in a vaccuum. In fact if you study the history you may be able to see and understand the connections between the civil liberties legal branch of that struggle of which Marshall was a part, and the activism branch led by Martin Luther King. I am tired of these modified "I have a black friend" insertions by those trying to brow beat black people into taking a route that tickles and massages ethnic supremacist joy spots. Give me a break! A system in which the so called national leader gets up on a podium before an audience of his ethnic brethren and sistren and intimates to them that one segment of the population is not pulling its weight and are waiting for handouts is not likely to change from within. Let us examine this idiocy of reasoning that argues that protest against injustices are futile. If the ancestors of Africans who were enslaved did not protest and struggle, and had confined their hopes of freedom on changing Massas mind from gentle persuasion from a position in the kitchen or the cotton field, black people would still be in bondage in the Americas. But forget that. Let me put something out here to show the utter assininity in the argument. Give me one historical example of major changes in any social order that came about from working within the system and absent tangential activism from without. And if you cannot supply that then you guys should just shut your mouths or take off your overcoats. Martin Luther King opined that quote, "Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle. And so we must straighten our backs and work for our freedom. A man can't ride you unless your back is bent". Straightening our backs does not mean allowing people to pass off facetious and shallow assertions as divine wisdom. Asserting that changes to an order is accomplishable solely from working within the system violates the basic notion of commonsense. Could Nelson Mandela change the system of apartheid by working within the system of apartheid. Hey, did Cheddie Jagan and the PPP confine themselves to working within the existing system for change. Or did they burn cane, lead protest marches, comandeer ballot boxes, and engage in a millieu of legal and illegal extra system activities. There is an idiocy, seemingly natural to some mindsets of Guyana, that generate ideas that would be fodder for comedic relief if the circumstances and the reality were not so tragic. If you are Indian it is ok to protest the things you do not agree with, but if you are black you sit down and sing kumbaya and hope the current day massas will kindly relent. With friends like these advising us our enemies can take a vacation. By victoriaguy Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   And if I may... This is a quote from a famous poet (of African decent if you must know...) it says: "Each of us has the right and the responsibility to asses the road which lie ahead and those over which we have traveled, and if the feature road looms ominous or unpromising, and the road back uninviting-inviting, then we need to gather our resolve and carrying only the necessary baggage, step off that road into another direction. If the new choice is also unpalatable, without embarrassment, we must be ready to change that one as well" So I ask you, how long have we been protesting all sorts of things to get what we seek? and how long will we continue protesting before we see that it's not going to work unless we spend pooling our efforts into alternative way of thinking. Are you seriously going to just sit and continue to agree with things (like protests) because that's all we knew about or are you going to step off that road because it's NECESSARY FOR CHANGE? By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   wow VG you've really outdone yourself on this one, but for your information sir or madam I am an Afro Guyanese student who refuse to follow the norm and play the blame game. I'm proud of it too because time and again, it's right before our eyes, we're getting no where trying to point fingers at other people. And if that's not good enough for you, I've been apart of this forum before and left because for a minute I was beginning to think that the people in this forum are very much one tracked and at one time very bashful. I have since changed because it's been a while since I've been here and I've forgotten the old one. But consider this: we all say we seek to be equal and have the government NOT treat us the way they do...like I said we spend so much time pointing fingers trying to make others give us a way forward before we just go work for it like every one else. Regardless of what, I'm sticking by my point. It's harder but the benefits you reap are much more. I'm sorry I can't just sit and say oh my people are always right when very few of us seek to make a change by trying a method different from the norm. So call me a wolf for trying something different, something that seems to work and make more sense and be a sheep for protesting like it's putting us all somewhere. We just keep getting slapped on a little more in the face if you haven't noticed... By tally Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   Hello I must be a complete idiot to conceive that a group can bring about conisderable change by working through the system. However Brown vs. Board of Education proves that one can. Or I guess sine may consider Thurgood Marshall to be an idiot as well. By lightskin Saturday, April 26, 2008 Reply   DO NOT BELIEVE THE NONSENSE OF WOLVES MASQUERADING AS SHEEP One can pretty much deduce the leanings of people based on their willingness and flim flammery to white wash actions when it comes from one side and black list when it comes from another. And I have long taken note of the decitful strategy of people to assume an ethnic identity in order to lend weight to their propagandizing. The proof can be discerned in the inane conflation of historical analogies with the claim that a protest for the right of an Indian to broadcast is creating chaos so that Afro-Guyanese can have their way. No African Guyanese would make that articulation, and it is standard repertoire for the Indian racists who clap and laud when Tain protest but howl and scream when Buxton does. We need to stop being fooled by these wolf in sheep clothings who come into these forums in the role of Trojan Horses of deceit claiming African Guyanese Identity. The fact that they cannot even write or spell the description should be evidence of the unfamiliarity with the identity they conveniently assume as a facade for puerile perspectives influenced by bottom house racist nurturings. These few in here, this sturdy band of the like minded, who only seem to surface and contribute when actions of the PPP Government is under scrutiny, enjoy inverse proportionate rapture from the putting down and denigration of the African Guyanese population. How convenient for them. Notice that the leader of the nation making denigrating statements about us do not translate into causing tension and chaos for them. No no. These are Orwell's pigs, revolutionary thinkers committed to the value that although all people are equal, the people who share or proximate the biological and cultural covering they come into the world with, are more equaller than the rest of us. When you see people making idiotic recommendations about working through the system with what you have, you know for sure that a Chronicle identity chameleon has joined the debate. The mission of these operatives is to dim the awareness of African Guyanese to the insidious nature of the system, until its effect make such awareness irrelevant. You know what they say. Show me your company and I will tell you who you are. I say look at the company of those who are against this protest, their outpourings in this blog, and be reminded and conscious of who they are. Don't be fooled by people laying claim to blackness in a blog in order to rail against blackness. This practice has become increasingly popular Guyana Politics. They either assume a name that hides their identity, or make assertions to convey the impression that they are black in order to obfuscate the bias behind their positions. I say tell yourself that you are not crazy, that you are rational, that you are reacting to real stimuli in the political environment. Don't buy into the insidious persuasion to believe them rather than "your lying eyes". Amanda!!!! By victoriaguy Friday, April 25, 2008 Reply   What do u think? Do you think that Guyana should give Jamaica land to plant rice, when we had our problem the other day and the question was asked on Jamaica News "T.V.J" if they should send police to help us with our crime (The jamaican people said no by 86% vote) I don't think we should give them any land to help them out in they sitution, because they did not want to help us out even though they crime rate is far higher than ours, they respond should have been better when ask to vote. "HAND WASH HAND MAKE HAND COME CLEAN" NO LAND TO PLANT RICE JASMAICA. By pinky Friday, April 25, 2008 Reply   well said... Lightskin I have to agree with you... By tally Friday, April 25, 2008 Reply   Why I support Guyana hosting Carifesta Carifesta can serve Guyana well on so many levels. It can bring in much needed revenue, show case the country's eco-tourism potential, highlight Guyana's diverse cultural heritage and bring attention to the plight of Guyanese populace. Carifesta will bring hundreds, if not thousands of foriegn based performers, spectators, journalist, camara men and others to Guyana's shores. A huge audience will be present for those who want to inform the international community about Guyana's ongoing struggle with political corruption, crime and poverty.Hence I don't agree that Guyanese should protest against hosting Carifesta but use Carifesta as a venue to voice thier dissatisfactions. And we can do this while taking in much needed foreign currency. I can never pass up a legitimate opportunity to make money. Maybe its the Indian in me. By lightskin Friday, April 25, 2008 Reply

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